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The Official Polaris 700/800 Oil Pressure Relief Valve Thread

Discussion in 'Full Size: 700, 800, 2009-2014 Model Years' started by DieselFume, Feb 24, 2017.

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  1. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    2013 XP 800 Ranger, Three 2017 Polaris 570 Full Sizes. All subjected to hard ranch work, long hours and rough conditions. 5 years or bust!

    Since this is common problem for any polaris 4 stroke machine that has the 700/800 twin, I figured we might as well start an "official" discussion thread of sorts on this, maybe in the future we can sticky it.

    This is a problem I've encountered mostly on our 800 rangers, and mostly after they get 1000 hours on them or so.

    What happens is the piston(dowel) in the relief valve gets scored and can get stuck in a closed position, or an open position. Closed position will cause max oil pressure, which can blow oil filter seals, or the cans themselves. Also will result in oil pressure so high that it will essentially "float" the valves and cause a no compression situation, and will stop the engine from starting for 30 seconds to 1 minute until the valvetrain has time to bleed off-

    A valve stuck open situation allows maximum oil bleed off, which results in low, or no oil pressure and usually manifests it self as a connecting rod failure.

    Sometimes a new dowel pin fixes the problem, sometimes just buffing it will do the trick.

    All however have proven to be a short term fix in my experience that always comes back to the same issue.

    Polaris has blamed oil change intervals that are over extended, but in my opinion the main culprit is the stainless steal dowel that scars up the aluminum case. Dirty oil compounds the situation and causes more scratches, scars and valve sticking.

    So the problem would seem that the dowel is the problem.

    I went and tried using a single 8mm ball bearing which is exactly the same outside diameter at the dowel, followed by the spring, and then another ball on top. (the two balls stack up to the same height as the dowel, so no spring compression is lost). 20170211_6.JPG

    This works fairly well until the oil gets hot. when the oil gets very hot, the oil pressure will bleed down to as low as a few lbs of pressure and will make audible lifter rattle at idle. Any other rpm range the oil pressure is just fine. Colder weather it doesn't seem to be a problem I'ts been said that the 700/800s can live with just a few lbs of oil pressure at idle and it won't cause any real issues, but mine would get low enough to where the idle got really choppy and the exhaust would start to stink because I believe the lifters weren't pumping up to their needed height and it was effecting how the engine was running.

    Option two is two of the 8mm ball bearings stacked on top of each other at the bottom of the bore, followed by the spring and plug- This option from what I've seen, stops all the low oil pressure issues at idle. Oil pressure is a little above spec in the rest of the rpm range. Issue seems to be that at temps below about 30F when the oil is cold, the oil pressure still spikes and can cause lifter pump up and stall unless you allow the machine to warm up a couple minutes. However I imagine starting an engine with this setup when the temp outdoors is at zero and below could be almost an impossibility.

    What I'm wondering is happening is if the second ball is getting caught in what I think is the oil pressure waste/dump port, and causing higher oil press than normal?

    And with the single ball setup, I'm thinking that since there is no dowel there to cover the waste port while running at idle, I think the oil pump could be drawing air through the waste/dump port and through the bleed off port that is located normally above the dowel? causing the oil pump to lose prime?

    Ideas?

    800 oil press relief case pic 2.PNG
     
  2. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    Hey Adam the piston is seated in the pic. She was stuck good. The oil on this 800 blew out the oil filter o-ring and took out a rod bearing. I believe from the piston being stuck over pressuring. Had to make a small metal dowel pin to come in from the top and needle nose pliers to put pressure on top of the piston to get her out. I polished the piston and bore and she is moving like butter now. This motor has 500 hrs and 3000 miles. She is getting new top end, crankshaft, all bearings, cam and lifters, oil pump, water pump and seals. Found a crack in the exhaust manifold. I welded the crack up and then noticed the top cracked also so put a flashlight inside and it was a mess light leaking through several more cracks. Ordered a new one today. Have a little over $3000 so far in Polaris parts. Just waiting on cam kit and now an exhaust manifold.
     
  3. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    You are correct in the picture the pressurized oil is on top and when things work right the piston moves down when needed to lower pressure. The small weep hole at the bottom lets any oil below the piston vent back into crankcase to prevent the piston from hydro-locking. Its pretty simple but would be nice if the piston ran in a chrome moly sleeve. I believe it would eliminate this problem. Probably be a good idea to pull the piston annually and clean her up and maybe an oil pressure gauge to keep an eye on things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  4. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    Thanks for verifying everything Matt. @mchildress

    The last time I cleaned up my piston (dowel) I still had issues with it sticking. I imagine things are getting ugly enough in the sleeve now to where polishing the dowel is having limited success.

    I ordered some of these along with my oil pressure gauge a couple days ago- They're 5/16 dowels that are used as head alignment studs on a small block chevy.

    They will measure .010" smaller in diameter than the factory dowel, and around .015 shorter.

    Thinking this is my last resort if nothing else works. Little worried about running something that much smaller than the bore since it could leave a nasty wear groove on top. But at this point it's figure out a solution or buy a new case!

    So the dowel in your pick is stuck all the way shut? how much of that dowel is exposed at that point? the whole mid section? Just wondering if my two ball bearing stacked setup if the second 8mm ball is getting caught in that opening? if you get time and still have the case, could you measure that opening for me? If it's fairly large and the second ball is falling into that groove, then I may as well abandon the 2 ball setup now for something more favorable.

    Honestly, I think the single ball bearing idea would work just fine if there was a wayto block off the bleed off (weep hole). Don't think you'd need it with a single ball bearing since anything that gets by it would immediately go into the waste oil port? but blocking it would definitely keep the suction side from pulling in any air at idle.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    Adam I got your measurement on how much of the dowl is exposed. The width of the dump point is .155. I measured how much of the dowl seated is up in the cylinder to the top of the dump point .360.

    Something else I just noticed is the dowl is not completely seated with the spring and bolt installed. I sprayied WD40 in from the top and getting some blow by. Not much but you can see it. I can push the dowl into seat by hand with a magnet pick up tool and she seals. Could be just a little wear in the top of the bore making it a tad longer or the spring is weak. A new spring and or a small shim between the spring and bolt should fix this. I can see this contributing to lower oil pressure at idle.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  6. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    Plugging the weep hole I would have concerns about the spring area becomeing a sump and collecting trash or water and causing more problems. Probably needs to be pulled annually and inspected anyway its a problem child.
     
  7. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    @mchildress
    Matt,
    Can't tell ya how much I appreciate you taking the time to help with this!

    Those measurements are very helpful!

    The wear marks on my old piston collaborate your measurements, and like you said, the piston moves very little in the bore!

    I have an idea-

    I'd like to stick with the single ball bearing in the bottom of the bore, followed by a shortened spring (maybe take 8mm off of it), and the put in piston back into the bore far enough to get well past the "ledge" that is visible from the bolt end of the bore. to get it to that point I may have to use a ball bearing for a spacer on top, or another short spring. What I think this might do is stop the engine from sucking air from above the piston through that bleed off port. With the piston in that bore it would be difficult. Question will be getting it to the right spot. Oil press relief valve should work fine since the ball bearing should still relieve pressure out into the dump port as before....

    If you wouldn't mind getting me one more measurement, what is the length from the top of the bore (with plug removed) down to where the bore necks down? (near the bleeder port point?), and maybe from the top of the bore down to just were the main dump port starts?

    Thanks again!

    Adam
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  8. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    Here you go should be pretty close. A little tight getting my Stanley 16' tape measure in there. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  9. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    Thanks again for the help. Will start with some test setups sometime here soon. Gotta make sure I have extra parts in case I need to go back to the stock setup.
     
  10. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    @Zaairman @mchildress @Jungleman
    For the record, I've been operating two 800 Rangers now for about 1 month with an updated relief valve setup. The final solution ended up being the Small Block Chevy head dowel being used as a replacement for the polaris dowel. The chevy dowel is a little shorter, maybe .030", but I make that up by giving the spring a couple good tugs, lengthening it slightly.

    The Chevy dowel measures 5/16" diameter, which is .010 smaller than the polaris dowel which is 8mm. I thought this could end up being a problem with low oil pressure on very hot oil, but the oil pressure gauge I installed has shown a minimum of 10 lbs hot at idle with 10w/30 motor oil, and about 12psi with 15/40.

    Oil pressure on average hot when in the higher rpms runs about 30-50 psi depending on how hot the engine is, and what the rpms are.

    Starting on cold oil, even 15w/40 has no longer been a problem with hyd lifter lock. The oil pressure spikes up to a little over 80psi and holds there for a little while till the oil warms up. never gets high enough to be an issue.

    In time will the smaller dowel be an issue for bore wear? I'm not sure, but I do know this is working great, and for those that are at their wits end for a solution without removing the engine and replacing the case, this is the best I have been able to come up with and still have cold start capability, and acceptable hot oil pressure

    Best part is the dowels were only a few dollars for the pair!

    I'll try and get some real time video of what I'm seeing on the oil pressure gauge soon!
     
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  11. Zaairman

    Zaairman Zach SXS Nation Rookie

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    @DieselFume, thanks for the great info. Where did you order the dowel pins? Jegs/Summit?

    I know I mentioned it before, but I was also running a (shortened) Baisley TwinCam 88 Harley Davidson oil pressure spring in mine with the ball bearings. I think it takes about 15 lbs to compress whereas the stock Polaris spring was right at 10 lbs.

    My cold start oil pressure is high, around 100lbs. I might have to give your method a shot.
     
  12. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    Just as an update, I've got the Chevy cylinder head alignment dowels in two of our 800s now, and they've been working great for over 150 hours on each machine. My machine never drops below 12psi hot, and on average runs about 32psi (stock oil pressure spec) when fully warm at off idle rpms.

    The one machine that was having chronic valve sticking issues that would sometimes lock the valvetrain while running and kill the engine is now cured and has been working better than it has in a LONG time.

    I'm going to do this mod to my other two 800s when I get the chance-

    For those of you who are lurking or curious out there I got my dowels from Jegs- Here's a short cut-

    Mr Gasket 4375: Cylinder Head Dowel Pins 1957-97 SB-Chevy | JEGS

    It's a Mr. Gasket part# 4375


    Here's what they'll look like when you get them, two per package-


    [​IMG]
     
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  13. mchildress

    mchildress Matt SXS Nation Rookie

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    I should be good for a lil while. I gave the bore a good polishing with 1200 while the case was split. Really wish they would of sleeved the bore believe it would of saved a lot of folks this headache. I was digging around in the shop the other a day and found a new in the box Ford Racing 0-80 PSI oil pressure gauge guess where its going.
     
  14. Seastacker

    Seastacker Carl Moderator

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    That Ford Racing gauge will add at least 15-20 hp :);)
     
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  15. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    I put an 80lb jegs oil pressure gauge on mine as well. It's pretty much just right. on a cold startup, it pegs the 80lb gauge and then settles down as the oil warms up. I imagine in winter it could hit 100psi or better.
     
  16. Richard Davidson

    Richard Davidson RD Moderator

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    Great solution that won't bankrupt you! I run a full set of gages on my Prowler, plus a idiot light for oil pressure! The Arctic Cat motor has a pressurized oil system for top end, and outer bearing on the wet clutch. I see 50-65 psi cold, 25 hot. Prowlers call for 10-20 psi @ 2500 rpm hot.
     
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  17. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    That doesn't seem like alot of oil pressure does it when hot? Polaris's spec on the 700/800 is around 32 psi hot, but many guys buy aftermarket kits that allow you to put more preload on the pressure relief valve spring and bring the oil pressure up some.

    For me, 10 lbs is enough at idle, but I sure like to see 30 lbs at 6000 rpm!
     
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  18. Richard Davidson

    Richard Davidson RD Moderator

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    Tried to find High Volume oil pump, but none are available. Being that the top end is the super critical area I watch cam and lifter surfaces closely. A made a set of plexiglass windows that I use on inspection for oil flow. The top end gets a lot of oil at 25 psi! The lower end is all splash lubed as it would be near impossible to pressurize the roller bearings! When I lost my cam, the oil temp was very high (275 F), since then I watch oil temp when beating on it. This is when I first installed head studs and overlooked the oil passage in the head bolt hole (dumb ass rookie mistake! LOL) I made up one reduced shank stud, and then decided to increase the bolt hole in diameter. I have a 12 volt oil pump (designed for pulling oil out of a motor home or boat motor) that I prelube the motor with to watch oil flow. For 20 bucks it works great! I run a oil cooler and put a Tee in the oil cooler line to pump the oil into. I guess I just have way too much time to play! LOL
     
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  19. DieselFume

    DieselFume Adam Moderator

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    Rich- I take it you can't shim up your oil press relief valve to increase your oil pressure?
     
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  20. Richard Davidson

    Richard Davidson RD Moderator

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    No on shimming the valve. I have though about blocking it off, but watching the pressure cold I do not think it ever by-passed. Guess the best thing to do is put a gage on it and add pressure until it opens! I have an old one that I'll rig up.
     

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